I've read posts and comments from number of 25 man raiders out there who are welcoming these raiding changes, but there are a lot who are also declaring the death of 25 mans.
Now I completely respect those who are sharing their views on how to keep 25 man raiding viable or worthwhile. I mean, a lot of my bloggy friends are 25 man raiders and I respect you for your choice to raid 25 mans. I just think that I should get the same level of respect for my choice and preference to raid 10 mans.
But there are also a lot of posts and comments from 25 man raiders that I just have to say are total pricks. It just seems that their entire argument rests on wanting to declare themselves "better than" 10 man raiders.
Hence my pic here to the left.
So on one of these posts, two comments cracked me up.
Honorshammer states "that 10 man Guilds are little more than farm teams for the 25 mans. New players come in, gear up, and snatched up by 25 mans almost immediately".
Treeboi comments that "10 man guilds always fall apart. The reason is that there are not enough geared backups to replace core players who cannot raid that night, for whatever the reason". He concludes with "10 man guilds tend to survive about 6 months, a year at most, before they completely stop raiding".
Really? Really?!?! Wow. Let me say this. I've been in The Left Claw now for over three years. Three years and 2 months to be exact. When I look at the folks who have left our guild in the last year, not a single raider has left for a 25 man guild. Not all 10 man guilds are farms for 25 man guilds.
Secondly, our guild has been raiding 10 mans for over two years. We started with Kara in March of 2008, and followed that up with every single raid that has been put out. We did ZA, we did Naxx, we did Ulduar, we did TOC, and we're doing ICC now. So not only have we "survived" for over a year, we've fucking thrived. Geez, now I'm irritated.
It seems that for most folks out there, their experience or understanding of 10 man raids are only that they are run within a 25 man guild, are pugs, or are much more casual guilds running with no interest in keeping up with progression. They just can't seem to fathom that there are strict 10 guilds who run 10 mans but do so with a more hardcore mindset. But you know what? We're out there. And we're proof that this model CAN and DOES work. So don't fucking tell me 10 man raiding guilds don't or can't exist. (F-bomb count so far: 2)
You guys may keep reading more posts around these raiding changes from me. Seriously, I feel that I have to put out there the perspective from the current strict 10 raider. I feel like right now its just me and Kae. If any of you know of other strict 10 raiders who have talked about this, please let me know. I'd love to get their thoughts.
Wait... isn't Honorshammer a 10-man raid leader? I mean, there could be more out there with that name, but... irony! Perhaps it's his own guild's experience with 10-strict raiding, which isn't the fault of the format.
ReplyDeleteIf you recruit players who just want a quick stepping stone into larger raids, that's what's going to happen. If you recruit players who WANT to be there and ENJOY the ten-man format, it won't.
I linked a handful of other ten-man bloggers in my post today, hopefully it will make you feel less lonely :)
I used to have a lot of respect of Honorshammer's viewpoints. That's gone. I don't know Treeboi from Adam (but with a name like that--sorry, but "-boi" connotes ignorance, to me--it's not a surprise).
ReplyDeleteI'm almost ashamed to say I'm a 25-man raider. I also enjoy 10-mans. I welcome the changes; I think they'll be much better for true 25-man raiders (i.e., those who simply aren't loot whores). I don't see that they'll hurt 10-mans, either.
I suspect our guild will have a LOT of trouble with the changes, simply because we don't have enough dedicated raiders to do a 25-man raid more than one night a week. And we don't often field more than one 10-man, and lately, that/those haven't been able to organize for more than one night a week. It seems too many of our non-core raiders are only in it for the easier badges.
At any rate: I agree with you 100 percent, K.
I blogged a little about it a while ago, but have yet to find time to address the coming changes.
ReplyDeletehttp://guildmum.com/2010/03/strict-10-man-raiding-is-it-worth-it.html
Those were my thoughts from before the announcement. I'll get round to the changes at some point.
My opinion is that despite being too generalizing, treeboi's comment isn't far from the truth.
ReplyDeleteIt's a reflection of the guild recruitment spam you see in trade or city channels - every few weeks some idealistic bloke starts a new guild and then proclaims they'll "eventually hit level cap, start running heroics, and finally step into 10mans, then progress onto 25 mans". General statement there, but what we see is that most of these guilds eventually fade away without a trace.
And why? Recruitment may be too slow - impatient raiders jump ship, and the guild cannot sustain a stable roster. That or raiders don't turn up regularly, destroying the raid momentum of the guild, and making others gquit. Drama, ninjas, active poaching... etc.
The guilds that survive and prosper, their key to success includes strong leadership and members having the right attitudes first and foremost. Gear can be improved, fails can be corrected, but if the core of the raid is unstable, the guild is going to go down with it. And sadly that's a very common occurrence.
That 10-mans will be equally rewarding as 25-mans, I just feel that will exarcebate the problem. This problem of potential raiders being trapped in hopeless 10-man startups, or leaving raiding altogether as a result, is going to cut the recruitment pool for the other established guilds, 10 or 25.
Blizzard is unlikely to renege on this decision though, so I'm just hoping that the Guild Levelling/Talent system will provide a strong incentive for raiders to really choose between 10 and 25. Otherwise common psychology (loot, logistics, drama) dictates most raiders sticking to 10mans and contributing to the death of 25 man raiding.
PS I wonder when will Blizz switch to 15 and 30 man raids.
So, I just posted a small novel in your post from yesterday that gives my feelings a little bit...and I guess perhaps my comment was a reaction to both posts since I read them both and then started my comment on the older of the two, so I won't clog your comments in two places!
ReplyDeleteWhat I will say, is that unfortunately there will be ignorant people wherever you go, and equally as unfortuante is that often it is these people that yell the loudest so they are heard over the quiet voices making sense in the background :)
Casuals whine they can't get 40 people together...we get 25 man raids...casuals whine they can't get 25 people together, thus we have 10 mans,
ReplyDeleteI miss the good ole days of 40 mans, when you said you were a raider it meant something.
This is another move by blizz to take the social out of their game.
@Kae: Oh, Honorshammer is a 10 man guild leader? Really? Wow. I bristle at generalizations like all 10 man guilds are farms for 25 man guilds.
ReplyDeleteOh and thanks for the other links on your post. Awesome. I think I shall take the mantle of writing emotional "screw this" posts with high f-bomb counts. And I shall leave the more coherent, level headed discussion/explanation posts for folks like you and Vidyala.
@Kestrel: Aw thanks Kestrel. I guess that's how I see it too, in that I also think 25 man guilds will continue to exist. Sure, some may die out, but I think more will remain that some have suggested.
@Sephrenia: Yay another strict 10 raider! And grats on Lich King! Awesome!
@Anonymous: I also believe that some of these changes will relate somehow to the guild leveling changes.
But my issue with Treeboi's comment is yes, it is generalizing and not the case for many strict 10 guilds.
@Beru: I totally understand your point. I guess the issue is that when strict 10 raiders have been given the "heh, 10 man is so easy (in 25 man gear mind you), you are just casual if you're doing 10 man" for so long, its hard for us strict 10 raiders NOT to feel vindicated.
But yes, it should be a choice. And both choices should be respected. I shall quote Vidyala's excellent post since she says it more eloquently (and with less f-bombs!) than I:
"All strict tens have been asking for is parity; for the recognition that what we do isn’t a joke, that just because it takes fewer people, doesn’t mean that it’s “easy mode.”
People who do strict tens aren’t looking to take anything away from people who’d rather do twenty-fives. I believe that’s true. I wish I could say the same of all the twenty-fives raiders I’ve encountered, concerned with making sure their e-peen is gilded while leaving those of us who have chosen a different path out in the cold."
I've chosen a different path to raiding. I've made the choice to raid with 9 other friends, friends to the point that many of us are meeting up this summer. How does my choice to raid in a 10 man format affect or change the experience of those who choose to do it in 25 man? Why must you take something away from me for your experience to be more valuable or meaningful?
25 man raiders who, as Kestrel says, are truly doing it for the accomplishment in bringing 25 man together and for the epic feel/scope of it should continue to do so. And I do believe that the 25 man guilds will receive greater guild rewards in the guild leveling system.
There has been a lot of thoughtful commentary on these changes by 25 man raiders. And its unfortunate that some of them are simply and mindlessly branded as elitist for raising concerns. But some of the posts and comments clearly do seem elitist to me, talking about how easy 10 mans are, where their motivation seems to simply to be "better than" 10 man raiding.
All of it is perspective though, right? Where what you are doing right now may color your view/reaction to it? I definitely recognize that is true. But the reminder to really respect each side's opinions and choices to take different paths is a good one.
We are a strict 10 Man guild and basically formed because our old guild wanted to do 25s over 10s.
ReplyDeleteCurrently we are 8of 12 in ICC 10 heroic which is better than a lot of the 25 man guilds on our server despite only raiding 2 nights a week.
I am all for the changes as it takes away the perception that 10 man raids are somehow sub par and really only raids to be done on off days or as a training ground for 25 mans.
Zetter
Most of the people who point their fingers down on 10 mans are the same people who are the reason i quit 25s. Drama Queens! For 25 manners they sure don't seem to have much. :)
ReplyDeleteI did have a comment, but it got so long it got turned into a blog post. (Free blog pimping courtesy of Keredria.)
ReplyDeletehttp://tehkholabides.blogspot.com/2010/04/intermission-warning-f-bombs-have-been.html
Also, I think I may have dropped a few more f-bombs...
After the Crew fell apart I gave 25 progression raiding a try. It was... meh. Too many people and too much drama. I knew and liked a couple of people in the guild, but the other 20+ were strangers to me, just people who were around to help me kill bosses. Not really that fun.
ReplyDeleteSure it felt epic and all, but it was too professional. After the bosses were dead, everyone left and didn't show up again until the next raid. Yes, yes, I know not all 25 guilds are that way, but many of them are.
In a 10, there are few enough people that you can still run a srs bzns raid while making bad jokes and knowing that no one will be offended... because they offer an opportunity to really get to know all of the people that you play with.
People, and there seem to be quite a few of them, who think that 10 man is easy mode don't seem to realize that difficulty is balanced to gear availability. 25 man gear makes 10's a joke, but they're still pretty tough in 10 gear.
And currently 25's get fewer items/person/boss than 10's (generally 1 item per 2 people in a 10, and 1 item per 2.5 in a 25), which makes it rational that they should get better loot. But as Blizzard has stated, that in Cataclysm 25's will get more items/person than 10's, plus more gold and more badges, it may actually be more efficient to gear up in a 25 than a 10. Thusly, fears that 25's will be dead seem overblown to me, at least right now.
Ugg, longer than I wanted to be, but I've been thinking all of that for a long time. Nice to see that Blizzard is thinking along the same lines :)
@zetter: Yay for more strict 10 raiders! And grats on doing so well in ICC!
ReplyDelete@Attackattack: First question... where did your name come from? Not just attack, but attackattack?
Secondly... yes some 25 man raiders do look down on 10 man raiders. Not all, but some.
@Khol Drake: 24 f-bombs! Whoa! ;)
@Nkm: Yeah, I'm glad you ended up finding us and becoming a Claw. You know how to kick ass on every single toon you play and I am glad you're running with us.